It seems that it’s time to talk about good ideas and bad ideas when it comes to approaching women. See, last week, an example of holy hopping sheep shit never do.
WAGs (or Wags) is an acronym used to refer to Wives And Girlfriends of high-profile professional athletes. The term may also be used in the singular form, "WAG", to.
Aug 16, 2012 · 659 thoughts on “ You Never Know Just How You Look Through Other People ’s Eyes ”.
Which is to say that you may be trying your hardest to be interesting and engaging and fun to be around — and still come off as a creeper to someone else. Yes, that sucks for you. But you know what? To which my response is: you have got to be kidding me. Indeed, regardless of your efforts to present yourself in a certain way, it is almost certain you will come across to some other people as not that way at all, and possibly the opposite of that way entirely.
Let me, as I so often do for matters such as this, use myself as a good anecdotal example. I often speak up on issues that are of concern to me; there are people who wish I would shut up about them, including some folks who are nominally on my side of an issue.
I try to be pleasant with people; to some people I come across as insufferable, glib or insincere. I try to be open and upfront about most of my opinions; some people see that as me being an arrogant asshole. But despite my best efforts not to be any of those things, there will be people who think at least one and possibly all of those things about me.
What can I do when I try to be [x], and I come off as not[x] to some other person? In the very short run, not much of anything. The next thing I can do is ask myself, well, do they have a point? In which case, fair enough. If one does have time and the other party has an interest, one could talk to them about the variance and see where the disconnect is. Bottom line here: Your self-image is not the same as the image of you others receive.
People will often see you entirely differently than you want them to. If you try to insist that they must, the likelihood of you coming across as petulant and unpleasant rises significantly. So, no, in this respect, some people often women seeing other people often men as creepers when those other people are trying to be interesting and engaging and fun is not actually an unusual reaction dynamic at all. What is different about the creeper scenario is that there is very often a physical and psychological dynamic that has threatening possibilities to it.
People may respond to you differently than you intend; you should still make an effort not to be a grasping, self-centered assbag. In my experience, being a grasping, self-centered assbag is one of the very few times where how you present yourself is exactly how other people see you, every time, without exception.
I think a lot of the disconnect on the prior thread was due to people getting the impression or willfully misunderstanding that someone being creeped out by you means you must leave the party, bus, town or planet you share with them. All it means is that you must stop interacting with themand that you may only resume interacting with them at their pleasure.
I think Gulliver is right. But my therapist had a hard time getting my mind around this idea, so I can see why it can be challenging using MYself as an anecdotal example. Thanks for this, John. Actions have consequences, and we cannot control outcomes. Our success or failure rate at these attempts define our overall happiness with this approach. I can sort of see that, but I also think representatives of a dominant culture refusing to change to accommodate a minority is sort of universal.
This is usually cause IMO by an inability to separate criticism of one single action IN a culture with ravening hordes seeking to destroy everything about that culture, salt the earth, and have a party on the ashes, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Because once in a while an individual that culture has offended will inevitably get angry enough to wish, in public, that the culture be burned to the ground.
And suddenly that person becomes a representative of all criticism, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, just opposite from the way that a creeper is painted as a lone-grope-man, not at all representative of this culture and HOW DARE YOU YOU VILE… FEMINIST!
I hope that a few people who learn something from your observations. Thanks for your words. Some people need to get a hold of themselves. Were the complainants all white males, too? Seeing your chest at the beach is fine if your are a guy or a girl — not so much in certain social situations. Thank you for this. I plan to point to this the next time I have an argument with my son over intention vs outcome and responsibility of self actions.
Sometimes he just needs reminding. They are perfectly free to disagree with me and act like grasping, self-serving assbags if they wish. I hope they are happy in their choice. I have been watching in amazement at the Geek web has gone bat-shit crazy this summer about all of this. Look, people, it is not hard. Most of the guys getting upset need to remember the days of nerd and geek abuse. Did it feel good when someone set off your inner alarm?
Just use about one ounce of empathy and if someone is creeped out by something you do, you apologize and move on. It is not rocket science. The sexual harassment issue in our community is real and the anger that emerged needs to be listened too. Do not let this serious discussion become overwhelmed by the Nice Guy syndrome thanks Captain Awkward! Oh and boys, when male rape is depicted in every genre and screen that I have to sit through, then you might really get our fear based reactions.
Years ago I heard an interview where Carl Reiner was talking about Mel Brooks. That sprang to mind reading this post this morning. We all have those moments when we just miss for whatever reason, whether it is just the wrong audience, the wrong timing, trying too hard, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, whatever.
Being self aware means catching the clues that tell you it is time to pack up and move on from the situation. The conversation from yesterday showed a distinct lack of that sort awareness. I speak from experience, so take heed. Something about first impressions, second chances, and the lack thereof.
Also, I challenge your final statement. Women who marry dangerous life-sentenced murderers, for instance. Also Charlie Sheen gets dates. Constant Assbag will now become the name of my next band in Rock Band, however. Seriously, I am stunned at the amount of effort it is taking to explain these rather simple concepts. I have never been to a comic or an SF con so I have no idea what the environment is like. Yet I have never seen or heard of this sort of thing being a problem.
Now, it is possible I was just blind to it but working on panels and in breakouts with women who complained about their own under representation and often dismissive attitudes something I did see frequently I never heard them complain about creepers. I think John has nailed this one. How you perceive yourself is not necessarily how others perceive you.
For instance, I was a small child. I distinctly remember my grandmother on several occasions wondering if I was going to make it to puberty, etc. All of my siblings were large. I grew up thinking of myself as a small person. The defining moment was during a game session when a young woman, new to gaming, took something I said in character completely wrong and started screaming at me, incoherently.
I, stunned, packed my stuff and left so that the rest of the folks could continue their evening. One of my friends explained it to me and brought it home for me.
I rarely shave so I am very scruffy looking. I AM a large man and I speak emphatically. That makes some people VERY uncomfortable and some people find me intimidating. So, as a result, I constantly gauge my behavior and watch those around me.
I maintain a strict no-fly zone around myself. I never approach new people closer than handshake distance and always move at a mosey. I know it makes me nervous, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. We just happen to be talking about it a lot the last couple of months.
That shows how naive or possibly self satisfied and smug I have been in my social interaction with the people around me, I never knew that someone could take me to be one! You are not responsible for her cerebral meanderings. Guys do not have a monopoly on being wierdos. There are plenty of crazy, annoying women out there. That post read like you were mixing apples and oranges. You start by talking about a guy doing his leisure suit Larry routine and hitting on a woman and she is clearly not interested.
The flip side being, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, I am not going to walk up and hang out with the jerk who just wants to talk about himself either. Reply to Matt please. I understand how you feel, all about the intimidating part, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Accept my commiserations, pal. Also now I understand why some people instinctively flinch when they come face to face with me for the first time.
Scalzi, it would have been better, if I had not sex fuck erotic audio sex stories this post. Awww heck that takes out all the fun out of real honest to goodness communication!!! This quoted section is exactly the opposite standard when applied to race.
How are you squaring the circle when it comes to the accepted standard concerning gender interaction and the accepted standard concerning racial interaction? People will see often see you entirely differently than you want them to. I am, btw, speaking within the context of a someone usually a man approaching a member of the opposite sex with the obvious intent of starting some sort of a hopefully personal relationship.
I will clarify that I refer here to serial creepers rather than just the casually socially awkward who can sometimes be creepy without realizing it. Think the dude dressed as a Jedi might be creeping on the girl dressed as the girl from Hunger Games right now.
No wait, she just handed him a huge halberd. I was just playing around. So I endure, as graciously as I can, unwanted hugs and little touches from acquaintances who consider those things to be normal, friendly behavior.
No need to make that worse. All of these are things are not easy to think though or explain, so I am very grateful for someone as articulate as you and many of the commenters here to help me formulate those explanations. Bitchez be crazy, right? In most cases it crosses the line from civil to something else says the guy who uses it himself from time to time, but whose site it is and therefore has slightly more leeway on these things.
No matter how good your intentions or how hard you try. With the risk of getting off-topic, If anyone is interested in a bit of reading on what Nina appears to consider to be typical interactions with women — read her link. Human beings do not spring into being automatically understanding social norms or behaviors — we have to LEARN them and not everyone learns the same way some people are not neurotypical and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT or even has the opportunity to learn how to navigate the complexities of social interaction.
Which brings up another good point: even outside of the actually-creepy realm, as The Pint says, nobody is obligated to like anyone else. Nobody is obligated to hang out with anyone else. I wish them well. In a way this is really a marketplace issue.
You can offer what you have your friendship and others are free to accept it or ignore it. Hectoring them and telling them why they are wrong is not usually going to result in more effective and satisfying transactions.
Normally you would prepare yourself by trying to find out what the employer is looking for and presenting yourself in a way that would make them want to hire you. Comparing race to the creeper behavior as Scalzi has outlined is a false comparison — race is part of who a person IS and is immutable, creeping is a BEHAVIOR that can be changed.
Yes, I cannot help how other people react to me. However, we can insist on mutual respect and compassion, regardless. I deal with people every day that have some characteristic I am uncomfortable with for my own reasons.
That does not give me the right to treat anyone with disrespect. However, I can make an effort to see things from their perspective, I can strive for some empathy and compassion and respect.
We can acknowledge that there are people with whom we want nothing to do with and still acknowledge their humanity. Not wanting to interact with someone and treating others with respect and compassion are not mutually exclusive. You can choose to treat people with what you believe is mutual respect and compassion, and I would encourage that. You cannot insist that they interpret what you offer exactly as you intended to offer it, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck.
You may make a joke that a week prior would have been funny, but this week something has happened that makes that same joke incredibly distasteful, insensitive or hurtful to a person. You can only be responsible for your own part of the equation and how you handle yourself during the interaction. That above thought includes allowing others NOT to engage with you if they choose to, even for erroneous aka — unintentionally to you off-putting reasons! But at the same time, when trying to address creepers and harrassment at a systemic level, there is nothing to be gained by attacking people for being driven by fairness and are heavily motivated by honor.
Because by themselves, fairness and honor do not make someone a creeper. If someone is motivated by honor, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, then this definition is about the worst possible thing in the world. And what happened on the other thread was someone compared the unfairness of the definition of creeper with the unfairness of someone walking down the street, calling you a prick, shoulder checking you, and laughing.
If the person is motivated by honor, what what other people think of him, then this feeds into it and makes everything worse. And that there are still others who think they have a leg to stand on when they argue against it.
I did just read a piece that seemed to merely explain that we with the author using himself as an exampleas mere humans, cannot choose how other people see us, regardless of our intentions. That phrase alone is dismissive in that context. Oh, gee, those women thinking too much… Also! I am wondering where this fictional creeper is who would actually read this article and cure himself of synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Josh Jasper: I think Lorenzo is looking at this this from the wrong angle.
Most guys get drunk and can act creepy but will apologize and stop. A real predator goes into the whole defensive act and somehow the victim is now the bad guy. The men who have creeped on me have simply not respected me as a person, and that is the central issue, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. It was offensive, not funny.
And he explains the context extremely well in his opening paragraphs… Maybe I just fell in love with the response in my head.
Any time a customer got mad at me when I worked at a certain bookstore, my coworkers generally took it as a sign that the person must be completely out-of-their-heads crazy. Sometimes they would call ahead of time, trying to get a guarantee over the phone that we would buy them.
Someone with this sort of vested interest, and zero expertise or empathy for the store, cannot be trusted to have the right perception of their books let alone themselves…! The more times they said it, the worse the books would be. Do not, I repeat, do NOT take such protestations at face value. Not that it matters. Exactly as Scalzi already explained.
There is nothing that says this opinion is or must be driven synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck any particular behavior. I teach, own a business and go to school and I meet several people daily who make me uncomfortable, so uncomfortable I want to run. But, we as a society have grown to coddle women. And it does happen. The admonition to grow up certainly applies, here, Scorpius.
The person for whom that admonition would best apply may surprise you. I keep seeing folks seeming to confuse serious creeping with baseline uncomfortable. I think that following the suggested rules works out just about right. No touching, no looming, blocking, following. Up to that point I see no issues.
You do need to pay attention to the social situation. You do need to react to things you perceive. It does make you a creeper if you continue to force your presence on folks who you know feel this way. Take things slow and calm until you get better at reading people and situations and as has been pointed out, anyone can learn this stuff…just that in some cases it takes effort where other folks get it instinctively.
Scorpius — Encouraging women to report harassing behavior to authority figures and taking their reports of such seriously is not coddling. This post and the sentiment it espouses would have been very valuable to me in my twenties a long time ago! I have to deal with it. Most girls do NOT want to make a scene yes I acknowledge there are crazies out thereso when a girl says something, she tends to make light of it.
I on the other hand have punched guys who thought they had the right to touch me. For some reasons guys respect that more???? When a girl complains that a guy has made her uncomfortable what she is usually saying is that he has invaded her personal space repeatedly or made incredibly scary comments like rapish shit that she is starting to get the idea are not actually jokes.
You, as a man, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, do not have the built in fear that every woman on this planet has to deal with. So when someone says they are uncomfortable with something, then the guy should man up and walk away!!!! And depending on the circumstances, open to civil liability. A survey recently reported in the New York Times grupomediapoint.info reports that one in five women had been raped or had been victims of attempted rape, one in four have been beaten by an intimate partner, and one in six have been stalked.
Good lord, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, you turn away for a second and they just get worse. Other people, who are not predators — or drunk for that matter — can get defensive. I teach seminars all over the country, and we get evaluations. The feedback is often helpful and almost always positive, but sometimes an attendee will make a comment on the evaluation that really takes me aback.
There is nothing I can do after the fact. It is just a fact of life — not everyone is going to like you, or think you are smart or handsome or witty or funny, or whatever. So, learn to live with it and accept it. Which response do I think about the most? I finally had to learn to accept that not everyone is going to like me. If someone thinks I am trying to pick them up, all I can say is, please stop with the drugs. Yes, I have been accused of being a creep for attempting to barge into a conversation.
It was only to tell a woman that her car was smoking and I thought, it might catch on fire. Second, a lot of businesses now have rules regarding harassment.
Pride is listed as one of the seven deadly sins. Many places where honor could be used, you can replace it with respect. Greg, other than derailing, I have no idea why you need to point out the blatantly obvious that people are sometimes wrong. He is kind of earnestly, puppydoggishly charming in his own way.
He seems pretty harmless. But he is a creeper. At total, total, total asshat creeper. Every way in which he interacts with women, from Penny, to his mother, to Bernadette, is awful. He clearly perceives them strictly as creatures who exist for his convenience: Penny and other women as something pretty to look at, have sex with, or boost his status by decorating him arm candy ; his mother as his servant and food-provider; and Bernadette as both fortunately she stands up to him, but why she went out with him again after they first broke up is a bit of a —oh, wait, he kept stalking her until she gave in.
No cookie for you! Not perceiving men as human creates similar problems. They are not very different from you, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Take some time to watch Big Bang Theory with an eye towards this some time. Howard is definitely a creeper and Koothrapali often is. Leonard is not, but he gets excluded or used just as often as the other geeks, if not more so. It has been heartbreaking to watch him be routinely ostracized because women lump him in with the actual creepers.
Josh: Greg, other than derailing, I have no idea why you need to point out the blatantly obvious that people are sometimes wrong. And you know what? But sometimes humans are wrong. Michael Lee, what is your friend doing to address his crippling shyness? Sounds like a very unhappy way to live. You could even read some of the reports which your search will pull up… Frankly and John. What I do think is different is the number of people from this community who take the time to follow threads of discussions across the net and who are willing to comment on those discussions.
Gregg, yes, we can be wrong about labelling someone a creep. Or not, but that person is aware that there is less of an easy mark there. The word you are looking for is not honor. The key difference between what you are responding to and what MNmom said is and somehow the victim is now the bad guy.
One is a creeper. It is at least possible. A man or, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, for that matter, a woman who is short and unattractive is not able to rise out of that station—at least where interactions with the opposite sex are concerned. I took the liberty of Googling you, and you are quite physically attractive yourself. So no, that is a problem that you have never had to deal with, just as neither of us has had to deal with being African-American or gay.
You do not know what it is like to be chronically unattractive to the opposite sex. It is therefore comparatively easy for you to take a dismissive attitude toward the problem.
The point is that socially awkward, unattractive people are unlikely to ever be the beneficiaries of any sort of affirmative action program. Even in comparatively liberal and open-minded circles like this, there is little sympathy for the guy who is chronically rejected by women because he is short or just plain unattractive. Basically the attitude seems to be rather Randian: Too bad, deal with it. Then he attends a sci-fi conference where he mistakenly believes that his physical attributes will not be an impediment to attracting women.
Then he is rejected there, as well. So the guy behaves inappropriately in response. And unlike other disadvantaged groups, there are generally treated with derision rather than sympathy.
This is an apolitical issue. A short ugly guy who is an avowed feminist will be summarily rejected by women along with the short ugly guy who is a Bible-thumping Republican.
Finally: I am speaking here to the issue as it affects men, because that is the context of the Readercon discussion. There is a female side to this as well…but that is another discussion.
Fans attending are usually there to have fun. For invited speakers, writers, editors, artists, dealers—they are in the end there for professional reasons and the con is a work space for them. When these people get creeped on at a science-fiction convention, it is a problem of the same order for them synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck being creeped on at any other professional conference.
R has PTSD, A does not. As an illustration of the second example, just swap roles. As an illustration of the third example, consider a conversation between a vet just back from a war zone and a family member of a rape victim. Cringe for a while imagining all the possibilities. I am going to reject him. Therefore, he was acting inappropriately long before he was rejected. Because by themselves, fairness and respect do not make someone a creeper. If the person is motivated by respect, what what other people think of him, then this feeds into it and makes everything worse.
We want the person making someone feel uncomfortable to stop doing that behavior. I see it as the difference in the following two situations:. Person A wishes to talk to Person B. Person B does not wish to talk to Person A. No one loses face. Person C wishes to talk to Person D. Person C loses face, and Person D loses the ability to feel safe at the conference. One of the biggest crushes I had in my life was on a guy who was homely and geeky, with a big nose, horse face, and stringy hair.
He was also smart, imaginative, witty, and willing to interact with all kinds of people and take his chances with the opposite sex. We had a fling when his on-again-off-again relationship was off, and I was sad when he and his girlfriend got back together. She was an up-and-coming theater arts person in the craft area, not an synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck whose name was soon seen in movie credits.
So on at least a superficial level, he had enough going for him to attract smart and reasonably accomplished women I was starting my own business right around then. I know a ton of short people, overweight people, and homely people who interact just fine with the opposite sex, find a long-term partner, have kids, etc. I find it hard to believe that the only people you know who interact well with the opposite sex are conventionally attractive.
If your self-esteem is low, work on it, alone or with the help of a professional. Scalzi is describing a social dynamic that is very, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, very complex. When someone makes someone else uncomfortable, we should absolutely respect that feeling. Obviously, unwanted physical contact, harassment and the like get absolutely no sympathy.
But, at the other end of the spectrum, we see people who are ostracized for simply not being cool enough. As a society, we sometimes catch the dolphins with the tuna. I think my problem with these posts is that it presents a very black and white ideology. But, barring the absolute no-nos physical contact, harassment, stalking, etc.
My girlfriend and I make an excellent example. A few nights ago we met at a restaurant. She had gotten there before me and was standing in the waiting area. I walked up to her, slid my hand around her hip and gave her a closed-mouth kiss.
There was no spit swap. The kiss lasted significantly less than a second. Yet, when we went to find seats while we waited, we both noticed a fair number of people who disapproved of our display. I completely agree, and creeping towards a specific goal sums it up.
How is the creeped out person supposed to tell the difference between innocence and potential rapist? BW Sadly, not much. This would be the exact opposite of creeping behavior as it shows respect the person creeped out, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck.
External responses to public displays of affection are a poor choice of example. Both people involved in the display are likely interested. If, however, your girlfriend did not want to put on that kind of display in public and you forced the issue? But no one has argued that. Walk away and do something else. Because your behavior is between you and your girlfriend.
If Person A in the restaurant thinks it was disgusting, they get to think that. Michael Lee, sorry to hear that about your friend. But nothing is going to change in his life without his making some effort to change it.
I understand about learned helplessness. Happens all the time. But no person — short, ugly, tall, attractive or otherwise — is owed interaction with a specific person, or even in a specific circumstance.
It will affect how he interacts with people, and we will notice, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Best casual sex apps sex porn collection makes me feel stupid.
I also think some of synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck defensiveness comes from how the label is changing, and the failure to differentiate between a person who does a creep thing and a person who is inherently creepy. Or more generally between a person that does a bad thing and person that is bad. To be clear, I think this failure is internal to the people who are doing the objection. Back when I dated I know I came on too strong and was creepy towards a woman that I liked.
There was no second date and I get why. I was creepy and way too intense. Creepy seems to apply to that situation. Please explain to me what your request has to do with the conversation we are having about creeperness. What she said was rude, certainly. Miss Manners could probably give you an appropriately scathing and still polite response. Disappointment is disappointing; news at eleven. I can be more successful than I am, possibly—but most people can take measures to make themselves more attractive to a wider variety of people.
And yes, romantic relationships often depend on sexual attraction, which is often physical. Exactly what am I supposed to do about it? Start running a charity organization in my pants? No thanks: women get enough shit for that already.
Karina: Gregg, yes, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, we can be wrong about labelling someone a creep. Walking down the street at night, better safe than sorry, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Label the person following you a creep and remove yourself, call the authorities, whatever, to keep yourself safe. But I was talking about the words you used on this thread.
And we can afford to be a little more accurate with our words here on this thread. Somebody call the governor of illinois and tell him to reinstate the death penalty.
I think it is, unfortunately, the duty of the perceived creeper to back away. I partially agree with you. The con should be about the con. These men are responding badly to a bad situation. Where I disagree with you is in your assumption that all of these men as simply out for sex. I would be willing to wager that the majority of them are looking for actual relationships with women.
But I remember those days: they sucked. I was, in fact, nervous. Was I looking for sex? But in the short run, I would have settled for a platonic first date, for being treated nicely by a synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. They just want someone to give them a chance.
She may believe that you were. Telling John how to run his blog is merely a reflection of that. Some people, with no ill intentions, can be creepY, in the usual sense. But if they get your signal and back off, they are not creepERs in the sense of this post.
That was the distinction he was trying to draw, and by adding this information you have placed your scenario well outside what he was talking about.
And death penalty cases are an entirely different animal and not the subject of this post. It applies because the overarching argument here is that, when someone expresses discomfort, you have a social obligation to accommodate them.
She was expressing a genuine feeling of discomfort. I know plenty of perfectly nice fellows who are only looking for short term and mostly sexual relationships at given times in their lives, and I know men who want longer term relationships who are pushy and disrespectful.
The real issue is treating convention spaces, which are for business and learning and platonic socializing, as dating spaces.
To the extent some people have been socialized to think they are, we should work to correct the misimpression. Greg — I have a hard time getting your point. Are you assuming the only place to feel threatened is somewhere like a dark alley at night? Let me explain my point — I have no idea if the person I think is a creep is someone who really wants to do me harm, or someone who just comes accross horribly wrong and I find incredibly disagreeable and who sets off my alarm bells. How am I supposed to tell the difference between these two?
Why should I even care to make the distinction? Too bad some dude gets butthurt. I would assume the creeper quotient for technical conferences would be pretty similar except perhaps for age as they are male dominated and filled with nerds and geeks. I often hear clearly justified complaints from women engineers about issues of representation and respect but not about harassment at technical events.
If these things happen at the same frequency I would be ashamed to not have noticed and sad that it was not brought up, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Are there women out here that can provide data one way or the other on this? I will say the next tech con I have a role in there will be an anti-harassment policy published just in case. Nobody should have to deal with this crap. The implication I read in your statement is that he felt women at the conference would be obliged to respond to him regardless of his appearance.
His rejection — even if it is a rejection for something so simple as a first conversation — does not excuse any behavior he exhibits afterward. He is still treating those women as objects that he is entitled to, rather than as people who have interests and desires that are simply not going to intersect with his.
That person is the person who will give me a chance. I find it highly unlikely she was threatened. As such, no, no one is saying you had to accommodate her. However, if she clearly felt threatened by your behavior and you seem a sharp enough guy to figure out if she wasthen yes — you would have had an obligation to NOT THREATEN HER. Let them disengage gracefully, and no harm is done. I get your point: They just want someone to give them a chance.
Never dated in high school, never invited to the prom, and so on. But none of the guys I met at bars, in classes, at parties, etc. They had no responsibility to me to do anything other than be respectful toward me as a human being. Synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck confidence grew enormously.
If your self-confidence is low, trying to boost it by getting into a relationship is doing it ass-backwards, IMO, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Self-confidence first, then relationship. You seem determined to fit this into an MRA vs. I could care less about either of these. Also, you are wrong to assume that this only about sex. See my response to sistercoyote. He caused a controversy earlier this year when he published a study purporting that African-American women are not as attractive as women from other races.
Other studies have noted that African-American women receive far fewer responses on dating websites than women who are white, Asian or Hispanic. This material is also out there on the Internet.
Within a certain range, most people are attracted to the same sorts of physical characteristics. Just as he said. I can see how painful scenarios with your friend etc. You have a social obligation to not follow them around. You have a social obligation to not try to control their opinion of you.
If someone expresses discomfort, they have no obligation to change their opinion and you have no right to try to make them change it. A Kudos on the Butthole Surfers reference. I had another song in my head that was driving me crazy and now their song is in my head and it is much more tollerable. If someone is creeped out for i need to fuck exotic sexs reason, legitimate or not, then that is their right.
If legitimate, then perhaps some soul searching should be done to try and fix whatever it is you are doing to creep others out. And if that is the case, then why would you the person who is creeping out the other person for no perceived good reason want to hang around that person for any more time than necessary.
Of course, in very rare instances, there is just bad communication between the two people. I had a friend who, because of another person who was jealous of our friendship, decided to sabotage our friendship. She was creeped out by me now. However, seeing as her friendship was important to me, I called her and we talked it out. So I guess that would add in something else. Todd and Michael Lee. It is kind of disheartening to see how much people feel entitled to my time, attention, and vagina.
I am not obligated to give anyone access to these things. Why would you object to me saying this? Why does removing my autonomy mean so much to you? Todd: Believe me, I know. And have as little patience for the female equivalent of Bridget Jones as I do for the male. Join a book group; learn to waterski; adopt a dog; get, in some manner, a life. Not on this thread, and not on the others.
We have derided and dismissed people who think they have a right to the time and attention of others, who try and sneak or guilt their way into a relationship, or who respond to disappointment with either childish temper tantrums or blind persistence. I am extremely introverted, and I was once very shy. I persisted, and as I became more comfortable talking to people at events, they became much more comfortable talking to me.
Now I actually have conversations with people at events instead of spending the evening being serially rejected. My synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck there is one is that some people are socially awkward and synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck off vibes that make other people erotic cock sucking meet and fuck music or creeped out.
My only intention in all those years was to have a conversation. I stood at a socially appropriate distance and used standard conversational openers. Yet event after event people left me as soon as they could until eventually I had endured enough rejections that I stopped being nervous, thus not making other people nervous.
If someone creeps you out, consider whether they are actually being a creep touching you, standing too close, following you, saying inappropriate things or whether they are just setting off your warning alarms with their shy, nervous attempts to have a normal conversation. My time is precious, to be used in ways in which I want, to spend with the people whom I like, or alone in quiet contemplation if I choose.
Am I obligated to give up pieces of my life in the name of charity? Am I obligated to chat for a minimum of five minutes, to join him for coffee, on a date? How would your need for companionship possibly trump my need for NO companionship? Over the years, I have had a few truly scary experiences, lots of kind of skeevy experiences, and one case of outright assault. I do not generally discuss it with my male colleagues. Imagine how well that conversation would go if it turned out that the male colleague I was talking to thought like some of the men here.
I would never expect anyone to tolerate a situation or behavior that made them feel unsafe and I will vigorously defend their right to feel safe. I also take a hard stance against stalking and harassment. Finally, I would suggest that, as a general policy, we should be advising against anyone treating a convention or gaming environment as a pick-up spot. It was frustrating to see so much bigotry based on nothing more than what games people play. Nobody is forcing you to nor should you be expected to react in any way other than what you feel comfortable in doing.
So I find it hard to fault someone at the first violation of an unanounced strict boundry such as that. However, upon ignoring the initial hello or any other obvious signs of non-interest, if the boundry offender does not go away, then that person absolutely falls into the realm of creeperdom. But if you do make me uncomfortable, and I walk away from the conversation, it is not my responsibility to explain to you.
Once you do that? And my only sensible response is to be afraid, because I have no way of knowing what other boundaries I try to establish will be ignored. Your point about Todd wanting someone to give him a chance is so dead on. Many of these guys do indeed think women are obligated to at least give them a chance. I also realized that because all people have different tastes that there will be plenty of people who will be interested in me. This got me to be much less nervous about dating and, ironically, I wound up dating more of the women who I previously would not have dated because I had more self confidence and they found that attractive.
Once you gave a clear sign of no interest then for them to continue is harassment. For example, if you and I are on a train and you are reading a newspaper and I notice you are finished with a section. Other people might mind. I went through the gay version of being infatuated with guys who always seemed to be drawn to the biggest assbag in the room, like moths on meth.
See below for suggestions. You should definitely avoid taking lessons from strangers on the internet. If a man follows them, then he is by definition a creeper. Learn how to be less awkward. This is hard, I agree. Start by acknowledging this truth: that you are missing a fundamental human skill. True change and learning begins with acknowledging you have a problem.
If no one wants to talk to you, the problem is you. Try to comprehend why they work the way they do. You are not going to go from shy wallflower to life of the party in a week. It is important that you acknowledge progress may be slow. Your problem may be neurochemical, or too deeply synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck for you to sort it out on your own. If you have friends who seem socially skilled, it might be a good idea to seek their guidance and instruction.
They may have been trying to help you already. If you are the friend of a socially awkward person, it would be a mitzvah if you help them. And they did it without telling me. I figured it out years later. Both sorts are pathetic. That they so often find each other is a relief for the rest of us, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, but tragically reinforcing of their horrible perceptions of the opposite sex.
Liberal Dan, I would argue that the newspaper example may not be the best one to use, because that person may be taking the paper home to his or her family, and so asking for their purchased property might be considered rude.
But it does direct us toward a useful question to ask before initiating any encounter: What is the desired PURPOSE of the encounter? An example of natural conversation:.
Should I even bother going over there? An example of unnatural conversation:. Have you been to this convention before? The former interaction will be taken by most women as a friendly back-and-forth with a like-minded stranger. The latter interaction will be understood as a pickup, and the woman will react accordingly.
He wrote an opinion piece in his online column for Psychology Today. You would know this if you had bothered to take your own advice and Google him.
Somebody is indeed trying to turn this into a big MRA vs feminism debate, Todd. Being short and plain does not make one a creeper. Being underfucked does not make one a creeper. Being creepy makes one a creeper. Being desperate may, some conclude, justify creepiness as an emergency penis-wetting measure, but that conclusion is wrong: still creepy. And then, of course, if there was any other motive other than actually reading the paper they would erotic sex games fuck localy themselves.
I agree with your two scenarios and how they are presented. One is an actualy query and one is a pick up line desguised as a query. To see oursels as ithers see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us. I thought of a time where a female at a gaming store was uncomfortable and it actually was her fault. I heard her ask her friend, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, if a very exasperated way, why everyone kept staring at her chest.
She seemed annoyed and uncomfortable about this attention she was receiving. The reason why her chest was causing that much attention? She was wearing a t-shirt with some funny saying written across it and people were reading it. Were any of the people in that store creepers? There are, of course, people who try chatting with everyone, male and female, with no ulterior motive, and then get flagged as creepers because of their inability to grasp social interaction, and I do feel sympathy for them and their struggles.
None of the people, men or women, I approached at a New Orleans Comic Con to commend them on their costumes seemed bothered by me at all…. People go to them with very different expectations. I feel confident, based on reading the above, that all of you will be voting Republican if not Libertarian in November.
I would also expect to find a well-worn copy of Atlas Shrugged on your bookshelves. For crying out loud. Todd: You are entitled to professional, educational, cultural and governmental assistance and freedom from discrimination. You are not entitled to those same benefits from ME, personally, or you are infringing on MY freedom. Why does that idea disturb you so much? I will fight for your right to achieve any benefits you lack.
You are not entitled to other people. Now: How do you figure that I am turning this into an MRA vs. I was merely noting that some women—as well as some men—face challenges due to superficial standards of what is attractive. Please go find someone else in this thread to debate MRA vs. It is not on that person to leave the group to get away from you.
It is not on you to leave the hall. You are at a restaurant. It is not on you to get up and leave the restaurant. Or just to smilingly endure repeated passes?
Tell me, how many minutes do I have to spend listening to totally uninteresting conversation to qualify as a good person in your world? Or do I actually have to spread my legs for anyone with a sad enough story? Our Genial Host mentioned a few posts back that he has been the target of creepers on occasion.
Some stranger comes up to Mr. Scalzi and starts talking. Scalzi says he has to go. The stranger ignores Mr. Scalzi and the door. Scalzi owe it to this stranger to let them down easy? How synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck time does Mr.
Scalzi can walk away with your approval? Does your estimation of what Mr. For instance, offering someone who is differentially abled with a physical task that they may need assistance with IF they request that help. How can you fail to satisfy this small request?
What if all of them have already been promised to others? Is it fairer to give all your time to one person, a few minutes to a few people, a few seconds to all the people, or nothing at all?
Hell, this whole series of posts has counted as a very serious, honest offer of help. People with disadvantages who are, of course, entitled to help and sympathy are not entitled to the type of help and sympathy they may want. For instance, I absolutely believe that addicts should be treated, not imprisoned.
And I give money to treatment shelters. It would be unhelpful and inappropriate. Likewise, as much sympathy as I have for people with mental illnesses, and as much as I may donate to shelters and other support systems, I am in no way obligated, nor would it be appropriate, to continue to offer my presence for the abuse or other interaction an unstable, untreated person wanted from me. They might, if they decided to ask me about this issue, even get some suggestions and links! A person who is unable to interact with others needs help from a competent therapist, and maybe, depending on how aware he or she is of his or her situation, and how much self-reflection and growth he or she is willing to engage in a certain amount of abstract sympathy from the more socially adept.
Isabel: Your question is reasonable. Here are my main points, in summary. People who are attractive have a much easier time in social situations—especially with members of the opposite sex. While our society has given a lot of attention to the plight of racial minorities, homosexuals, etc. In the same vein, I have no problem with a convention hosting a workshop for people who feel uncertain about their social skills, or with someone setting up a dating site for convention-goers. My question is: what the hell do you want anyone to do about it?
Why did you bring these points up? He wants someone to give him a chance. He does not need either of these things: he needs Air, Food, Shelter and a number of other things and can make do without food and shelter for a time if he has to.
She wants someone to give her a chance. She does not need either of these things, and so forth. When Short Ugly Guy and Short Ugly Woman decide the object of their affections is obligated to respond to them in a way that will meet their want? When Tall Handsome Guy and Tall Curvaceous Woman decide the object of their affections is obligated to respond in a way that will meet their want?
Cloud — I am truly sorry to hear that and I understand your reluctance to bring it up. I have made something of a PItA of myself with inclusion statements for conferences I guess I have to add harassment polices now too. Also: supporting the government taking an action is by no means the same as volunteering to do it yourself.
I support government-funded mental health care and counseling, and yet I am not a psychiatrist, and I do not want to hear about your issues.
We were no longer lonely puppies hoping to be adopted. We had things to offer that members of the opposite sex were interested in. It always turned out to be a mistake, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Nor would I have done well, I believe, if any of the guys I was attracted to had given me a chance back when I was a lonely puppy.
They were right not to give me a chance, though I hardly felt that way at the time. I needed to develop some self-confidence first and some emotional maturity. Once you get past the falling-in-love endorphin stage, successful relationships involve a lot of communication, negotiation, and ability to deal with each other as both interdependent and independent adults.
Not even for minorities, homosexuals, etc. If someone refused to interact with black people on a professional level, refused to have black co-workers and black customers, the burden would be on them to leave that organization, because that would be an unfair impediment to the ability of their black colleagues to go synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck their normal lives. Nobody should be forced to interact with anyone for any reason. We owe it to ourselves to run a fair society, but beyond that, people are free to be as friendly or dickish as they desire so long as nobody is actually harmed or threatened by their actions.
That is an individual choice. Attempting to frame individual choice in who to spend time with as an institutional privilege is at best missing the point and at worst completely intellectually dishonest. Race and sexual orientation are not in the eye of the beholder. They are objective facts. Attractiveness is not, it is subjective. And whining because the people you think owe you their attention are not the ones willing to give it to you is deeply pathetic. A boundary-crosser needs to learn not to cross boundaries.
Love your comments, Sigh. Everything they really need to give me for a message could fit in ten minutes at most, not an hour. And: No one is obliged to do anything for them, or to care that they are special, special snowflakes, or to take their special, special snowflakiness into consideration when these same awkward men make them feel uncomfortable in whatever way.
If you are so all-fired concerned about the plight of the Awkward Man, I heartily encourage you to start the Awkward Man Foundation, which has as its purpose the psychological care and feeding of the Awkward Man, with an eye toward helping him develop his social skill set so that he may learn to approach the objects of his desire without alienating them simply by existing.
This way, such responsibility would not be assumed by you to be the role of anyone else. Xopher, yeah, I think I get that reasoning. There certainly are times more often with sales reps when their presentation can make the difference between me throwing their materials away or passing them on to someone else. I have no power at all to make the final decision, and when it comes to things the board needs to decide on as with sales reps my recommendation means very little.
When it comes to people asking for money not the sale reps I pass on ALL of those requests, and though I will include details that can be helpful in deciding whether or not the person was being honest etc.
He very much makes his own decisions. Yeah, I can understand trying to get me on your side, though. Taking an hour to do it? Not helpful I really cease being the one who can help you. At this church, anyway. Others may be different. Not a good idea. I can see why. But it annoys me, and now I have a slightly better understanding of why it annoys me.
I can totally sympathize with your predicament. I am often in a position where my assistance- taking basic information, making recommendations for targeted, professional assistance, and then passing the information on to those professionals- is needed, and I am happy to give it. Unfortunately, I am very rarely in a position where I can listen to too many details in addition to making it harder for me to get my other work done, it can cause conflicts and is often inappropriate, ethically.
Xopher makes a good point regarding church secretaries my mother was definitely the gatekeeper for our parish, although she was a very generous and welcoming one. Your boundary-setting might be to make it clear, up front, that you have no power other than specific-information-collecting-and-imparting, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. I find that when I make it clear that my boundaries are set by legal and ethical obligations, and that I have limited power over their situation because of these obligations, I get significantly less pushback.
To tie it back to the earlier discussion, even in this situation, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, where it is entirely appropriate to be asked for my attention and these people are, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, based on my job description and professional courtesy, entitled to my attention for a period of timeI find it necessary to set boundaries, and sometimes find that people cannot respect them.
I have the utmost sympathy for these people, and will do all I can appropriately do to help them, but really, at no point do I, as an individual, owe them more than the help I am capable of providing. The major difference is that in my professional position, I do owe them an explanation of where the boundary is. That said, I would absolutely never equate this professional situation with a social one, in which there is no such obligation, nor should there be.
Not only are they less desperate usuallybut yes, I can explain to them how many different committees need to agree before anything can be done, and that all I can do is barely get the ball rolling.
I agree about the boundaries and the difference between an explanation in a professional setting, as opposed to a social one. I used to have a panic button in my office, but it started malfunctioning alarm randomly going offso a parishioner took it home to fix it.
Then he left the church. You know, one of the things I enjoy about Mr. Nibbled to death by ducks, indeed. VERY few people feel threatened by them. The rest of the world just exists for my amusement, convenience and comfort.
When did an apology become a threat? But we all know that was not sufficient reason for Zimmerman to take punitive action. If he refuses to go away, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, or comes back later, or perhaps causes complaints from multiple victims, that is where it becomes actionable.
Another extreme example: Suppose a rape victim goes to a con where you are speaking. First time she encounters you in the hallway, she screams in fear. It turns out, in the dim lighting you reminded her of her attacker. Her reactions were perfectly understandable under the circumstances. When dealing with computers or laws, definitions are taken literally and really matter. When lawmakers lose sight of that, we end up with crazy stuff like kids becoming registered sex offenders for peeing outdoors.
Those are paraphrases, not direct quotes, but I believe they reasonably accurately convey the actual comments. People who are determined to argue against this point are going to argue against it, no matter the terms synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. I see no reason synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck someone should have to be or feel threatened in order to not have to deal with someone trying to interact with them.
Some people would feel threatened by the very presence of armed citizens. Others, such as myself, would not. I went to college in South Central LA, where gang colors were common attire. Some would feel threatened by such attire. But whether we feel threatened by people wearing gang colors or carrying arms is immaterial to whether we have to tolerate them.
What we are never obligated to tolerate is someone interacting with us, even if that someone is the most unthreatening soul on all of planet earth.
I must respectfully disagree, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. While feeling threatened is a non-trivial matter worthy of discussion, it should not be necessary to reject unwanted interaction. They absolutely know they are. The focus here is on people who choose to make an active attempt to interact with someone, and then a make them uncomfortable and b refuse to acknowledge that they have made a mistake and move on. On my blog grupomediapoint.info? The bans are for cases of harassment, stalking, and assault.
There will always be some missed cues, of course, and some unusually sensitive people, but that can likewise be defused by backing off and letting the other person go about their easily-frightened business.
Frankly, yes, it happens all the time in IT. I am glad you asked the question and commend you for now wanting to help rectify the situation. If a man is intelligent, kind, and treats me like a human being, he gets my attention. Attempts to define a social event as a place strictly for platonic socializing, and labeling all men who socialize there with an interest in romance or sex as creepers does seem like an attempt at slut-shaming.
Social clumsiness plus a single-minded focus on finding a sex partner does seem very likely to put a person into the creeper zone, however. The advice on not becoming a creeper or assbag applies regardless of intentions, remember, and in any situation including singles bars.
I call that slut-shaming. Genuine interest in others and openness to the possibility seems like it creates opportunities to have it directed at you if you do want it. He was as disgusted about it as I was; maybe that was just a veteran thing. Another good word gone, although the ideals remain in some. Those who think the legal system is infallible, and that commission of the deed should be presumed upon conviction … presumably you think there should not be an appeals process?
Do you pay any attention to the outcome of those appeals? It was named science fiction fandom and, outside of computer rooms and labs, was about the only place we could relax and be our nerdy selves. From the specific cases cited by victims, I know who these guys and scary girls are too. Not from me trying to get the woman to sleep with me, or for inappropriate touching, just general social ineptness. You appear to want a special exception carved out for you, Keith.
Want to not come across as creepy? I offered some ideas earlier. Is it unfair that you come across as creepy to some people? You know what, guys? What I think what most women want is to do their own thing.
I just think that looking for romance at that sort of event requires extra tact and sensitivity compred to trying to meet someone at a speed dating event or a bar, because a majority of other people will be there for other reasons and lots of advances are going to end up being unwelcome. For the record, when I in my very small way contributed to the science fiction fandom by writing fantasy novels and comics and drawing pictures of giant demonic bunnies, it was not with the intent of providing psychological care and feeding to the Foundation For Awkward Men, nor was I aware that by going to conventions to sell art that I had an implied contract with said Awkward Men.
I used ctrl-f to find your earlier comment which was one of the ones I had in mind, but then I read the rest of your comments for context and I think we more or less agree. If you want a place where women will be receptive to that, try speed dating. Creeper is the word those women were already using on their blogs to describe the serious serial offenders, essentially stalkers who use conventions as their hunting ground.
It makes him disabled, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Want to talk about how to help us? Want to call us a nasty word while you do so? All that matters is that, when they are, you choose the better part of valor and leave them alone.
Are you entitled to have them like you? Another autistic guy who totally agrees with both articles, used them for self-reflection, and expects to have greater social success as a result. Several other autistic people, and people who work with us share my view, and my psychologist agrees with everything I related to him from the articles.
I really thought we had finished going there already. It takes a deliberately obtuse person with autism, or a misdiagnosed sociopath, to cross into assbag territory more than once or twice.
The type that try to pursue something of an unwanted sexual nature. Which in some cases may be true, but In most cases are probably not.
Folks with autism generally go away after you tell them to; creepers do not. As I read it, his idea of a creeper is pretty much anyone with poor social skills who ever attempts to find a mate but blows it embarrassingly. And the reason DOES NOT MATTER! The only thing that matters is that every single person gets to decide whom they want to socialize with and whom they do not.
And painting yourself as a whipping boy reluctantly taking on the arduous task of correcting us idiots for our own good is a really tired and transparent rhetorical tactic that just makes you look lazy.
I know because I can go back and check the actual words. And so can you. This would be advisable for you to do before you attempt to enlist the aid of the Autism Support Network to chastize me for my insensitivity.
Making me the misplaced target of your ire will not do a single thing to change this. To this end I will:. Which is likely to make my life pleasant and fulfilling in the meantime? By default, as an adult in a public place, people are allowed to approach you. I only learned it because I was hoping to keep annoying salespeople away, but it turned out they are entitled to interrupt my reading. Schneier blogged about sexual harassment at DefCon and other hacker cons. I wanted to prevent that, but I guess I came across as angry.
No surprise there, being unable to communicate has been the story of my life. Everyone else in the room may think you are not creepering, but the person who feels you are creepering is correct. To that single person, you are. Life is not fair. It may have nothing to do with you. They smelled someone else while you were introduced, and so you smell in their mind like someone they hate.
There are no do-overs, life has no dress rehearsal. Sometimes you get a second chance. Sometimes you get many second chances, and waste all of those so far, too. Art holds up a mirror to life; life can be seen as art. Act one, the confusion. Act two, the complication, Act three, the climax and revelation. Now, Act four, where the direction is set for tragedy or comedy. All the world is our stage … step up and play your parts.
For those who feel, life is tragic; for those who think, life can become comedy. Life is not fair for anyone. Keith Burton — as someone else on the spectrum, let me inform you that the self-pity party gets really old really fast. Attacking the intelligence and honesty of women who speak out against creeper behavior and dismissing our experiences as mostly imaginary absolutely does defend the creepers.
Somehow I got lost in the conversation. And my following point was, hey, if we run into someone who appreciates fairness and appreciates respecting other people, then I see no value in attacking those virtues. You are, once again, reinforcing this notion of infallibility that does not exist in the real world.
People want to feel safe and believe that the bad guy was caught, and gloss over the details. Juries have a tendancy to believe the police over the accused, and have a tendancy to NOT want to be the one who let the bad guy away.
Do you think any of that very human, very imperfect, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, behavior is only restricted to murder cases? I mean, I get murder is a problem that needs a systemic solution.
I get rape is a problem and needs a systemic solution, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Sexual harrassment is a problem and needs a systemic solution. But people were talking about the system with a kind of certainty of its infallibility, so I brought it up. Liberal Dan : For example, if you and I are on a train and you are reading a newspaper and I notice you are finished with a section.
I was talking with a psych guy who was doing a study that would show people an image of people having sex, and for some people they would put in a room that had some disgusting sewage smell and others were in a normal smelling room. People in the disgusting smelling room tended to view the images more negatively than people in the normal smelling room. Our emotions affect our sense synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck right and wrong.
The experiment focus flipped when the students reported how difficult it was for them to ask someone for their seat. Apparently, when they reported this to Milgram, he pooh-poohed them and went to try it himself, only to be surprised that he had a similar reaction. Saying that, there is a distinction between what is a creeper at the individual versus systemic level.
One would hope that the definition requires that you actually, you know, do something to the person that would be reasonably be considered harassment by your average person. You can pretty much claim anything you do is self defense. George Zimmerman, as an individual, can say that he felt in danger for his life, and acted in self defense, and maybe that really was how he felt at the moment he pulled the trigger. But at the systemic level, he has to convince a jury that his feelings were reasonable for a reasonable person in his position.
Presumably, this person was asking because they did NOT want to be a creeper, so the article was geared towards individuals who considered themselves possibly occurring as creepers to other people, but wanted to remedy the situation.
It seemed to start off, or be inspired by, giving advice to an individual who wants to avoid being creepy. Everybody gets to have their opinion. Consequently you are in agreement on the salient points of acceptable behavior and the argument you are having is with something neither John nor anyone else on this thread or the prior thread has said. So you have two choices. In which case, why on earth should any of us bother listening to such a tantrum?
I was under the mistaken impression that you at least read my first comment on this thread the first comment, incidentallyand therefore would understand my meaning. Yes, you have to deal with it, and one of the ways you can deal with it is by summarily ending the interaction for no reason acceptable to the other party.
But when someone says deal with itthey usually mean put up with it. And no one has to put up with it. Because, as you said, autism is a real disability many of us have to deal with on a daily basis, and using it play the victim of a strawman is disrespectful to all of us who make certain that our disabilities do not infringe on the liberties of others.
Bess — My bad. I have to say that I generally think Mr. Scalzi comes off as an insufferable, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, arrogant asshole. The fact remains, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, however, that I enjoy Mr. I like to LIKE the authors I enjoy reading, or at least feel neutral about them or uninformed about the kind of person they are. One of the downsides of the advent of social media is the misperception that you actually know something about a writers personality, and the resultant clash that might occur between how you perceived them to be from their writing and how they come off to you when you see them blog, tweet or the like.
Scalzi points out, differences between intent and reality and variances in the way people are perceived by others is part of the deal we make every time we interact with each other. Anyway, just thinking out loud. Reading through the comments again, John never actually endorses your definition. Nothing after that matters for the definition. But if you want to talk about it at a systemic level, what we say is creeper or, what definition to use to ban someone from a convention, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck, for example.
It seems Scalzi is giving out individual advice to someoen wanting to not be a creeper, so his advice is geared at the individual level.
Which is why we synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck ban people for objective behavior such as harassment. Greg, as far as your view of Timmy that you mentioned a bit ago, I have sympathy for it, I do, but the longer he stuck around, the more he showed his hand. Maybe he just figured he had bigger fish to fry.
Then you can look at the list and be reassured that, in fact, walking up to me and saying hello would not cause me to think of you as a creeper. Unless, I suppose, you also exposed yourself while doing that.
Walking out of my hotel room and finding some guy who talked to me at a poster session standing there in the hallway. He immediately started talking to me when I came out of my room.
Coming out several minutes later to find him still standing there. His earlier enthusiasm was just annoying. Now, I work at the intersection of science and IT. I am quite used to being the only woman in the room and the odd sort of attention that comes with that. I have run into a lot of socially awkward people of both sexes. I have, in fact, worked with people who have Aspergers.
Until I figured out what was going on with them, they may have struck me as a bit odd- but I never thought they were creepers. In fact, I only raise the issue when I feel my safety is being threatened. You seem very worried about an extremely unlikely outcome, which, even if it happens, will cause you distress but no physical harm. To alleviate that worry, you are asking me to brush away worries about much more likely outcomes, which can quite literally be fatal.
Systemically, rapes not being reported or prosecuted are still a much bigger problem than false positives or wild unsubstanitated accusations gaining traction. Bess — That was probably not helpful. In my mind I was comparing the path I share with someone in real life, to the dramatic structure of a traditional five act play cp.
The mind sees pattern where there are happenings, mere coincidences; but sometimes seeing those patterns can provide a hint to future paths to try and take in reality. The Tarot and the I Ching can be used this way, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. The characters meet and the problem is set. Flaws in the characters inhibit solving the problem.
The big turning point. In a comedy, at least one of the characters has a revelation about himself that allows him to change the course of the play; in a tragedy, the flaw is revealed to the audience, but not the character or the character refuses the knowledge.
Act IV: Clarifications in a comedy or Collapse in a tragedy. Act V: Conclusion resolution of problems in a comedy or Catastrophe deaths, in tragedy. That way lies jail time. And if it was his first post on whatever, he has no relationships with anyone, so, no history, no background, and nothing to lose. Other Bill : Whoa. Underreporting and underprosecuting is a problem. Pretending the system is perfect is NOT the solution. Pretending the system is perfect is ANOTHER PROBLEM.
MUST NOT TALK ABOUT THIS!!!!! I run into the exact same sort of response when talking to someone who is an adamant support of the death penalty and I bring up the huge number of false convictions. For example, if you ask girls for permission before you kiss them then sure, you mitigate the risk of discomfort, but girls find it extremely unsexy. This guy is The Hill where you make your stand?
Honestly, my opinion is that Timmy is exactly the sort that you should be frustrated with for sapping your argument. And in general, for being, clearly, such an assbag. As with so many issues of privilege, strikes me a lot of the disagreement here is about labels and pigeon-holing.
It started like that, and then it got worse. I have concluded that the best way of dealing with this in the future is simply to ignore him, because he is not a special snowflake who gets to waste as much of my time as he wants.
Mind, totally think you are the arbiter of your thoughts synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck opinions regarding with whom you should spend your time. Other Bill : my opinion is that Timmy is exactly the sort that you should be frustrated with for sapping your argument. I was trying to understand him. In the absolute worst case, it would seem to be an improvement from where he started.
From a psychological point of view, when you present a choice to someone in moral terms, they are more likely to do the right thing. And the only difference could be how I present the choice to you. Obviously, some people still like that approach. And sometimes I end up doing it myself. A good approach I think. Stevie : I have concluded that the best way of dealing with this in the future is simply to ignore him, because he is not a special snowflake who gets to waste as much of my time as he wants.
I am really sorry about whatever happened to you in the past around being harassed and worse. People respond differently to the same situations. I mean, for myself, I am nice to people of walks of life.
So your documentation would give me something to send to my legislators as well as to provide some evidence for synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck that people do respond to such appeals.
Gotta love the You Are Damaging Your Cause by Being Angry argument grupomediapoint.info angry. If you want to be nice to creepers and the men who defend them…go right ahead. If you want to do something else…go to. That last paragraph is just…spectacular. I mean, this whole post is wonderful. But that last paragraph???
And of course, I have to take the cashbox with me and possibly other valuable equipment and go hide in the bathroom, jangling at the way, which has its own special obnoxiousness. This is not a hypothetical. I have had to do this.
Sometimes it was sexual creepy and sometimes it was just desperately painfully unpleasant let-me-tell-you-about-my-character without synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck obvious sexual component, but there you are. Attack the people who are percieved as creeps. It seems quite a lot harder to move it up. And what that meant to me is that no other conversation is possible. No other conversation was predictably possible at that point.
Mind you, others have to dance that dance with you; nevertheless, around here you are almost always a partner in synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck of those dances.
I gave you evidence above for how rape cases work in my world and frankly if all women have to do is report, press charges, and it goes to trial in your world then I want to live where you are. Because in my world the fallibility or infallibility of the court system is less an issue than women being afraid to report in the first place.
I tried to do that with Timmy, but he was clearly not interested in other viewpoints. My impression was that he was wound up already because he felt somehow threatened by the point John was making that Timmy IMO misunderstood and related to some hot button of his own. Very late to this conversation, but I want to respond to a point made by Michael Lee because I think it is emblematic of the failure of imagination experienced by so many of my fellow men mostly men in this thread and elsewhere.
The feeling simply IS. It feels shitty to get called on it. It feels monumentally unjust! Reject your inner Barney. Man or woman up. Do NOT expect a response. Take your non-threatening ass elsewhere. You are not creeped out! You might think, however, about how almost everyone is telling you the same thing. Because if so, I am surprised you passed the bar. And I am wondering why calling someone a creeper somehow is equated to arresting and convicting them for rape. Years and years ago, on Usenet, someone called me some names and I told them to stop.
But you know men are not emotional at all! So it must be just the power of TEH TRUFS! This dynamic is gleefully manipulated by self-professed nice, non-threatening non-creepers the world over. I resent and am deeply hurtified at your making me laugh out loud and draw attention to myself, such that the people sitting near me now have unfair opinions about me and my tendency to snort while laughing.
That would seem to be an improvemetn from where he was coming from. But I was curious. So another criticism from me towards Timmy. So in the end, multiple criticisms from me directed at Timmy. Just not worded as an attack. Now, maybe he was too defensive at that point from how the conversation started.
Or, if my points were too scary or offensive to him, included me in his attack. No, he just ignored me. Synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck had a ton of blood drawn after no breakfast, so I might not be thinking too clearly, but I agree with what BW said about Timmy.
Marcy:he just ignored me. Greg, thanks, on both comments. Glucose test for gestational diabetes, Kaiser does them on all pregnant women… fun times. Oh, what a devastating comeback. Your only basis for that assumption, however, is your unfounded belief that women are dishonest idiots, and no one is under any obligation to humor your delusion. Would calling security synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck professionalism, or does it have other drawbacks?
I would like to point out and if someone else has already, apologies that Awkward Men are NOT the only ones who found refuge in Science Fiction Fandom and computer labs. Plenty of Awkward Women found their way there, too, including me.
Marcy, my friend had gestational diabetes and a it was mostly annoying once she found out what it was and what to do and b it went away as the name implies postpartum.
Bright, bright blessings for a healthy pregnancy and birth! I think this synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck misses the point.
Maybe a creeper-wannabe or a nearly-creeper. I met a couple of months synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck at a local theatre function, and was suddenly reduced to fuck girl names meet up websites. I managed to introduce my wife, and they had a conversation snickering about my reaction and how my wife used to try to dress like the character she played for years on television.
Blushing stammering fanboy may not always be a variation of creeper, but this case was. My wife still giggles about it. If the creeper goes away without arguing about it, and later gets a second chance, maybe it all just synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck away as one of those social slips that everyone makes once in a while.
I miss those guys all of them, of whatever gender bunches. I think the definition I was proposing simply incorporated this last erotic scene road fuck as part of the definition of creeper, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck.
Rape is one type of sexual assault. Not all sexual assault is rape. They claim to be tolerantly ignoring me and others with whom they disagree, while frequently bringing up our names and calling us lying or aggressive douchebags.
There have been at least three of those people in the past conversations on Peacock and creeping. It will have no effect. Ignoring is much quieter.
And less work for Scalzi to moderate. But apparently, this is not true! Only pretty people mate. And then anyone who thinks that he or she is unattractive can go to cons secure in the knowledge that they will not have sex. No need to ever hit on anyone! Also apparently, if someone talks to you at a convention, you have to do whatever they say and like them. Because otherwise, you synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck just like a racial bigot. Or you can get body-checked in the street.
Because right now, at conventions, hundreds of attendees are getting thrown out just for being there. Throughout these posts, from the Peacock article to the creeper ones, Scalzi has consistently put forth one thing: you cannot control other people especially at a convention.
They are not responsible for you. Conventions have no responsibility to get you laid. People are not subject to your definition of what is a true geek, a non-shallow woman, etc. You cannot control their opinions of you.
You cannot force people not to ignore you. Some people resent this. That more people understand that they have rights to their own bodies and space and are responsible for their own behavior is progress.
Even if some people call us lying, intolerant, idiotic extremist gasbags in the process. Greg — It is not the going away without arguing that would make him not a creeper. This is a viewpoint thing. Just as legal assault happens in the mind of the victim, not in the words or deeds or motives of the attacker, creepering happens in the mind of the victim, not the words or deeds or motives of the creeper.
If she tells you to go away because you are creepering, you were. BW: Sexual synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck is not a synonym for rape. If you want to accuse me of arguing in bad faith for that shorthand, I can only say, really? On top of my synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck outrage, it also breaks my heart that our overlapping communities SF, skeptic, geekdom generally — supposedly evolved — seem to be simply soaking in this garbage.
Greg — yes, really. Words and phrases have meanings, both in connotation and denotation. If you think that those are somehow equivalent, you need to think more, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck.
Maybe look at your local statutes, and a few neighboring states as well. It is quite possible for someone who claims to be a victim of an assault to not have been actually assaulted by the letter of the law.
Intent is a required aspect of most crimes, including assault. Otherwise, George Zimmerman says he felt afraid for his life and we have to take his word for it. Thanks for the good blood and pregnancy wishes, Stevie, Xopher, sistercoyote! And for the clarification, Stevie. Not a rape accusation, and introducing the word rape adds more emotional charge for your argument, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck.
No doubt that will change, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Thank you for your comment of awesomeness. Sistercoyote, I think maybe it was trying to be orangeish?
Rape is a sexual assault, not all sexual assaults are legally classified as rape. But all are crimes of sexual violence. Saying Timmy was on the defensive because she called him a rapist is much more charged than saying the above because she accused him of sexual assault. Especially given how much his comment sounded like sexual assault.
Liberal Dan — I am not a lawyer. Complain to your local legislature. Consult your own lawyer. If you take my comments IN CONTEXT you will see that when it comes to the post about Greg, I am not saying that they are wrong that rape is the wrong word since not all rapes are sexual assaults. I am saying that perhaps it would be better to focus on the actual argument Greg was making instead of arguing with him over the word he used. When it comes to hthom, I AGREE on the issue of creepering and that the best way to avoid being a creeper is to avoid creeping.
I am just questioning IF victim is the right word to use. First case, I know it is the wrong word. Second case, I am not sure if it is the right word or not, so I am putting it out there for discussion. However, I think to get a conviction on an assault it is likely that the individual would have to be reasonable in feeling threatened.
Such a person might think I was serious. But no conviction is likely to be obtained even if the person with Bieber actually felt terrified. You wanted to know what the difference between sexual assault and rape is. The short answer is that under English law the maximum sentence for sexual assault is ten years; the maximum sentence for rape is life imprisonment, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. Marcy: It may sound much more charged, but the end result of an actual conviction for either crime is well, should be jailtime and registry on a sex offender list.
An unwanted kiss for sexual gratification could be construed as a sexual assault according to Stanford. Stevie: Where did I ask to know the difference? I think it was obvious I knew there was a difference. So the emotional charge of the words used is not pedantry. Marcy: Saying Timmy was on the defensive because she called him a rapist is much more charged than saying the above because she accused him of sexual assault.
Assault can also be the attempt — if I swing and miss — depending on your state. Even if I never really meant to hit you with the baseball bat, if it was reasonable for you to fear I would hurt you, that is assault. And if you read MY contributions to this thread in ANY context you would know better than to bring that weakass hairsplitting over here. I AGREE on the issue of creepering and that the best way to avoid being a creeper is to avoid creeping Incorrect! If so, I defer to their best semantic judgment.
Why bring it up? To give him a reality check on his attitude, perhaps? I was saying her post met the definition of an attack. A lousy lover, kiddo? Mythago — I was talking about assault, a threatened or actual attack in the eyes of the victim, and comparing it to creepering, also in the mind of the victim. The belief of the victim is the key element. Creepering might be a form of sexual assault but not of sexual battery. Or at the very least attempts at all of those. Note whatever you wish, but I just found your post absurd because you said I did something that I did not do.
To me, to use either term rhetorically against someone, especially when not called for, is b. Obviously the difference between the low end of what can be considered a sexual assault and rape is not trivial, synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck. It goes to the worst possible examples of sexual assault where the difference might be if there was insertion or not. If you feel differently then that is fine. But I would be more concerned with the creeper appologia than the rhetorical use of the wrong word.
If you feel otherwise and think it is that important, then great. You might also be surprised how many of those people proceded to become extremely hostile toward me to the point one guy was asked to leave the bus by the bus driver because he was shouting. And yes — an unwanted kiss can be a sexual assault. It is possible that someone may have legitmiate issues that may not be related to the person who is bringing unwanted attention.
Whatever their life experiences are are theres and I am not saying that anybody should judge that person for having those life experiences or for how they decide to deal with them afterwards. Both should stop the interaction. If I did, that was not the intent. With the link I was trying to educate others who might not know.
They were doing pure observation as an exercise. To indicate this, they had painted a stylized open eye on their foreheads — like o only sideways. We were informed of this at the morning meeting and asked not to speak to them. I hasten to add that I am NOT AT ALL saying that women, or anyone, should have to forego all interaction with anyone to avoid being crept upon, or that any such thing would work in geekdom.
Or some combination of the two of us. I see you, too, are a part-time employee of the Department of Redundancy Department — hail, fellow, well met. According to you we are not talking about something of vital importance because you have dismissed us already as being pedantic.
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Synonym for occasionally meet people to fuck - anyoneTechnically I met my wife because of a cold approach. Possibly a variant of eggplant. So keep an objective mind folks. I am learning that a lot of women disagree however, which would probably change my usage of the word if I used it frequently. Also, I have heard the term used by women numerous times. The entities of the manosphere are not interchangeable. Colloquially it can be better translated as "To understand something so thoroughly that the observer becomes part of the observed.
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